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Hi everyone! We are having our usual monthly gathering this Sunday in Santa Monica (12-14-08; see the event listing nearby on this tribe page). I hope to see you there! Whether or not you come to Sunday's meeting, feel free to carry on a discussion by posting your own ideas here, either before or after Sunday's meeting.
Here's the "official" wording of this very timely topic, which was the winner of the email voting this week:
IS SCIENCE CONVERGING ON THE TRUTH? Are scientists on a quest for fundamental truths, or do our various, successful scientific theories merely provide us with ever more useful ways of looking at the world? Is it even necessary for our different theories to be consistent with each other? Should scientists in different fields all speak the same language since they are all describing the same physical world, or should they use different words and tools because they are looking at that world from different (and perhaps incompatible) perspectives?
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See you Sunday!
Brian
Here's the "official" wording of this very timely topic, which was the winner of the email voting this week:
IS SCIENCE CONVERGING ON THE TRUTH? Are scientists on a quest for fundamental truths, or do our various, successful scientific theories merely provide us with ever more useful ways of looking at the world? Is it even necessary for our different theories to be consistent with each other? Should scientists in different fields all speak the same language since they are all describing the same physical world, or should they use different words and tools because they are looking at that world from different (and perhaps incompatible) perspectives?
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See you Sunday!
Brian
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Thu, December 11, 2008 - 4:21 PMIf you're interested, I have three OPTIONAL READINGS & AUDIO PROGRAMS for Sunday's meeting and this blog. I highly encourage you to inspire and clarify your thinking on the ideas and debates in this area by reading or skimming the first and/or second of these readings. The third is an audio download that is well worth listening to:
1. The main optional reading this month is plato.stanford.edu/entries/...progress/
This article focuses of the nature of scientific progress, a controversy that touches on the other, related issues of this month's topic, scientific realism (i.e., whether unobservable objects and processes are real and accurately described by our theories) and the unity of science (whether all sciences can be unified under one mega-theory). Some parts of the article are technical and specialized, like parts 1, 3.4 and 3.5; I would just skim or skip those parts, which aren't necessary to understanding the rest of the article. Read the intro, skip section 1, and read parts 2, 3 and 4. If you find this article difficult to understand, check out the next reading.
2. An "alternate" main optional reading is www.galilean-library.org/manuscript.php
This is a very good primer on the philosophy of science that introduces several aspects of this month's topic. If you're not familiar with this field, read or skim the interesting and relevant parts of this article.
3. www.philosophytalk.org/pastSh...nce.htm
This one-hour audio program from the "Philosophy Talk" radio show from Stanford goes into many issues in the philosophy of science, including the issues of this month's topic.
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FYI, here are the full vote-by-email results for the month:
1) Is Science Converging On The Truth? (20.5 Votes)
2) "A Foolish Consistency Is The Hobgoblin Of Little Minds…" (9.0 Votes)
3) Who Deserves Charity? (9.25 Votes)
4) Is What Moral Obligations Do We Have To Obey The Laws…? (14.5 Votes)
5) What Is Art? How Do We Know It When We See It? How Can We Define It? (16.5 Votes)
Each topic stays on the list until it wins or consistently receives a paltry number of votes. You may have noticed that the votes do not come in whole numbers. This is not because fractions of a person turn in votes, but because you receive one vote for your top choice, a half vote for your 2nd choice (if you had one), a quarter vote for your 3rd choice, and so on.
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Fri, December 12, 2008 - 5:10 PMI am not seeing the event listing - could you post a link, or put it in the events for this tribe?
Thanks
Jason -
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Fri, December 12, 2008 - 6:06 PMFor Jason or any other tribster who wants to come to our discussion group this Sunday:
The December '08 Philosophy-in-LA Discussion group (philosophy-in-LA.tribe.net) is happening this Sunday, December 14, 5:00 PM - 7:30 PM. We'll be at our usual venue, the Community Room of the Yahoo Center, 2500 Broadway, between Cloverfield & 26th, Santa Monica, 90404, 310-453-0333. Driving directions are at the end of this email. Feel free to bring a friend; new participants from all points of view and religions are welcome.
DIRECTIONS to the Community Room of the Yahoo! Center (formerly the Colorado Center), 2500 Broadway, at 25th St, between Cloverfield & 26th, Santa Monica, 90404-3065, 310-453-0333. From the 405, take the I-10 West, towards Santa Monica - go 2.2 mi. Take the CLOVERFIELD BLVD exit and turn Right on CLOVERFIELD BLVD. Go a half mile; turn Right on BROADWAY, go a quarter mile, park near 25th St. Parking is free on Sundays on Broadway & nearby streets, but much of 25th St is off limits; they will ticket you!
The Community Room is directly on Broadway at 25th St, at the corner of the building, a few feet from the "HBO Symantec" sign. It is directly across the street from the LA Art Institute and a bicycle shop. The room is not labeled, but you will notice its glass doors and plenty of windows with blinds on them. If you have trouble finding parking on the street, ample free parking is available in the parking garage beneath the building. The garage entrance is on the other side of the Colorado Center, so take Broadway to 26th St, turn right, take your first right (Colorado Ave); the garage entrance is at 2401 Colorado, on your right, just before Cloverfield. When you enter the garage, go straight as far as you can, turn right, go as far as you can and park near the 2500 building, where the "HBO" sign is. Walk up the stairs or take the elevator to "G" (the ground level), exit the building, take the short pathway until you can take a left (tennis courts will be in front of you), stop when you reach Broadway. The Community Room is a few feet to your left.
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Fri, December 12, 2008 - 5:35 PMAs a former graduate student in physics, I believe that science is indeed converging on the truth. To see why this is so, it is instructive to look briefly at the history of science and how it has progressed. In a vague sense, science is as old as humanity, since human beings have always been curious about the world in which we live and how things work. However, until the 17th century, our scientific knowledge was highly primitive and empirical at best. Truly accurate scientific laws and theories had to await the Scientific Revolution, pioneered by figures such as Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Bacon, and Harvey.
As an example of the progress of science, consider the history of our understanding of gravity. According to the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle circa the 3rd century BC, heavy objects fall in order to attain their natural place in the universe. He envisioned four spheres for each of the four classical "elements". The natural place for earth, the heaviest element, was the center of the universe, followed by water, the second heaviest element, which formed a sphere above earth, in turn followed by air, forming a third sphere, which was finally surrounded by fire, the outermost element. Moreover, heavier objects were believed to fall faster than lighter objects, the rate of fall being proportional to the weight of the object in question.
Although this theory conformed well to observation, it was clearly wrong. Galileo was the first to see this. By dropping two stones of different weights off the top of the Tower of Pisa and noting that they both landed at approximately the same time, he was able to show that in fact all object fall at the same rate, at least when the retarding effects of friction and air resistance are removed. Galileo's great insight was in part inspired by applying the new scientific method, outlined by Bacon, which emphasizes the necessity of performing accurate experiments to test theories, rather than relying on crude observation. Through his experiments, Galileo derived the law of falling bodies, namely v = gt, where v is the speed at which an object dropped at rest acquires after time t, and g (little-g) is the acceleration due to gravity at the earth's surrface, a constant equal to approximately 9.8 meters per second squared in metric units.
Galileo's law of falling bodies is quite accurate, though not exact and not the whole story. A century later, Newton improved on this law with his law of universal gravitation, which states that the gravitational force experienced by a point mass due to another point mass is attractive (directed toward the second mass), its magnitude proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the distance separating them. Mathematically, this law is written as F = -GMm/r^2, where M is the first mass, m is the second mass, r is the distance between the two masses, and G (big-G) is a constant, known as the universal gravitational constant, equal to 6.67 * 10^-11 N m^2/kg^2 in metric units. Newton's great insight in deriving this law was his observation of an apple falling in his orchard, which led him to wonder if the gravitational force of the earth on the apple was the same force which keeps the moon in orbit. Galileo's law is easily seen to be a consequence of Newton's, though his assumption that g (little-g) is constant is not quite true, since the Earth is not an exact sphere and it spins on its axis, effects which make the value of g vary by roughly half a percent.
Newton's law stood the test of time for over 200 years, until Einstein improved on it in 1915 with his General Theory of Relativity. Einstein's great insight what a thought experiment (the happiest thought of his life), in which he imagined an elevator in deep space, far removed from any matter, but being accelerated at a constant rate. Einstein concluded that there was no experiment whatsoever which could be performed inside the elevator which could determine that the elevator was not in fact at rest on the surface of a planet and thus in the presence of a gravitational field, which would give rise to the same perceived acceleration of "falling" bodies within the elevator. According to Einstein, gravity is not a force at all but rather a geometric effect due to the curvature of spacetime (space and time) in the presence of matter. The General Theory of Relativity is one of the most complicated scientific theories I know of, but it can be summed up rather intuitively as follows: Spacetime tells matter and energy how to move and matter and energy tell spacetime how to curve.
Once again, the General Theory of Relativity necessitated slight corrections in Newton's law. For instance, according to Newton, in the absence of gravitational perturbations and other extraneous effects, the orbit of a planet around the sun should not precess, whereas Einstein's theory predicts a small yet measurable precession of the orbit of Mercury, equal to about 43 arc seconds per century. Also, Einstein's theory predicts that light from a distant star should bend around the sun by approximately 1.75 arc seconds, twice the value predicted by Newton's law.
Thus far, Einstein's theory of gravity is the best such theory we have, though it is clear that it too will need to be modified, though no one yet knows how to do so. The reason we know it's not the whole story is because it does not take into account quantum effects. A theory of gravity which manages to incorporate both general relativity and quantum mechanics may turn out to be the long-sought Unified Field Theory or Theory of Everything, which would not only explain gravity in perfect detail but also in principle be capable of explaining all natural phenomena. At present, string theory, or more recently M-theory, seem to be the most hopeful candidates for such a theory, though unfortunately no one yet knows how to make any meaningful predictions from these theories. However, I am optimistic that there is indeed a Unified Field Theory and that someday we will discover it. -
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 2:38 AMI agree that each new scientific theory generally has greater explanatory power than the theory that it replaces (except when theories bifurcate, as in the case of relativistic physics vs. quantum mechanics). And so, if what we mean by "converging on the truth" is that scientific theories are increasing in the range of phenomena that they can predict and control, and in their accuracy in doing so, then I would agree that science is converging on the truth, with the stipulation that such convergence is an asymptote rather than an endpoint that will eventually be reached, after which no further progress can be made.
However, if "the truth" means an accurate model of how the world works, then it can hardly be said that scientific theories are converging upon anything, as each new scientific theory has often been quite radically different from its predecessor. For example, as your own account makes clear, relativistic physics presents a very different picture of how the world works than does Newtonian physics.
Science differs from philosophy in this respect, because what it seeks is not truth, but the ability to predict and control material phenomena. Scientific theories are of immense utility when used for those purposes, but they cannot lead us to fundamental truths about our world.
A fundamental truth is something that pertains to Existence as a whole. For example, we can say that Existence (unlimited Being) is singular, because since it includes everything, nothing can be outside of it. That is undeniably true, and is therefore not likely to be replaced by some completely different understanding in some subsequent philosophical theory. We can also say that since Existence is singular, it is not defined relative to anything else (because there *is* nothing else). We can also say that since Existence is not defined relatively, that it is entirely defined by its own internal differentiation. These are all immutable truths, and we can build upon them to gain an understanding of other things, such as the relationship between finite beings such as we are, and the Infinite.
When we do this, I believe that we can converge upon the truth. But scientific theories do not converge upon the truth in this manner, because such immutable truth is not the goal of science. -
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 12:26 PMYou raise some interesting points which I did not consider. I suppose you're correct that science is not converging on the truth, if by the truth you mean things that science as we now know it isn't designed to answer, such as what is the nature of the existence, does God exist, or is there an afterlife. However, who can say what directions science will take in the future? Perhaps what we call science today will someday be replaced by a more all-encompassing body of knowledge which may shed light on some of these deeper questions. -
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 3:19 PMYes, I do think that science is not designed to answer questions regarding meaning and ethics.
But more generally, I also do not think that scientific theories, as models of reality, can be said to be converging on the truth, because each successive theory presents such a radically different model of the world from that of its predecessors. My own idea of convergence involves something that becomes more similar to something else through a process of incremental change. So, with convergence, we should still be able to recognize much of the old model in the new model, only there would be certain additions and/or corrections in the new model. But in science, we have periodic *revolutions* which do not have this kind of an incremental nature. This is not troubling to science, nor should it be, because its goal is utility, rather than truth.
Your last sentence raises an interesting question regarding the relationship of philosophy to science. My own (philosophical) world view, for example, holds that cooperative diversity is the source of all being. In order for the parts of an entity to cooperate with one another to form something larger than themselves (i.e., that entity), some representation of the larger entity must be available to each such part in order for it to fulfill its role within the cooperative plexus. This concept is sometimes called *immanence* - the imprint of the large within each each of its constituent smaller parts. In the human body, for example, DNA that provides a representation of the entire body is spread throughout the body, but only specific, specialized aspects of that overall plan are expressed in each cell, tissue and organ.
Patterns like immanence that are described by philosophy may also be perceived by science when they are expressed within the material substrate that is science's domain. And I suppose that it is not impossible for us to generalize from such scientific perceptions to arrive at larger philosophical abstractions through induction. There seems to be a body of popular science writing that is based upon that kind of generalization - e.g., "The Holographic Universe."
There is no doubt that the material world can inspire us to look for immutable truths. Our attempt to form such a model of the larger world is in fact an example of the immanence just mentioned above. However, such inspirations lie outside the formal purview of science.
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 8:44 PMYou raise a couple of interesting points here. You're right that the idea of "scientific revolutions" seems to contradict the idea of convergence. However, I do see several scientific theories, the theory of gravity in particular, as converging on the truth, despite the revolutionary theories of Newton and Einstein. The revolutionary nature of these theories is not based on the fact that the previous theories were wrong, but rather that in each case there was a major paradigm shift. Thus, Newton was able to show that Galileo's law of falling bodies was a consequence of his more general theory of universal gravitation, and Einstein's general relativity theory, while presenting gravity in a radically different way from Newton, nevertheless still yield's Newton's theoy as an excellent approximation in most cases. I still believe in the existence of a unified field theory, which will in principle be capable of explaining all natural phenomena. I imagine it will also involve some radical paradigm shift(s), though most of what is currently known will be shown to follow from this theory to a very good approximation.
As for the holographic principle, I've read a bit about this fascinating idea, though I believe that at present there is very little data confirming or refuting it. In any case, if it is ever verified, it will certainly be another major paradigm shift!
Finally, as for deep questions regarding the nature of reality or questions about ethics and morality, you are correct in asserting that these do not belong to the domain of science as it exists today, but who's to say what directions science will take in the future. I for one believe that some day ethics and morality will be reduced to a quantitative science, by which time we'll have a much more enlightened legal system! -
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 12:22 AMRegarding the reduction of ethics to a quantitative science:
Certainly, if we are to be able to compare two separate outcomes in order to decide that one is more ethically preferred, that implies that we can somehow order those outcomes along some scale of values. Of course, it would be a partial rather than a total ordering, because there are many compatible ethical outcomes that can co-exist, and in fact ethically-grounded choices in parallel areas would tend to be mutually supportive rather than mutually exclusive.
My own ethical metric is based upon cooperative diversity, and there is not a little irony in the idea of reducing the degree of diversity to some kind of a scalar value. But so long as we know that it is a metric and not the ethical outcome itself, there is no contradiction. I have toyed with the idea that information theory could provide some clues toward developing such a measure of diversity. Unfortunately, if I understand information theory correctly, a purely random signal contains the most information, since it is impossible to anticipate on the receiving end of a message. By that measure, a monkey at a keyboard would produce more "information" than a prize-winning author. This leaves out the cooperative part of "cooperative diversity." For a measure of cooperative diversity, coherence, as expressed through the cooperative relationship of the letters and words to one another, would also have to be considered in order to gain a true understanding of the relationship of differentiation to content.
Diversity requires rich content, and if we are to attain it, we must be creative, not merely analytical. So while I can imagine some quantitative approach to evaluating possible outcomes for their conformance to an ethical ideal (e.g., that of diversity), that could only be used for an after-the-fact appraisal, not for the (necesssarily creative) ethical action itself.
In this regard I find it interesting that in science, the creative scientific act itself seems to lie outside of the body of scientific theory produced by such creativity. Scientific creativity can therefore be ethical by contributing to the cooperative diversity of the dialogue among scientists, even as scientific theory fails to capture that creative act and so remains focused outside the area of ethics.
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 9:40 PMYou have some interesting ideas on how to try to measure ethics. I haven't thought along these lines myself. I think good and evil could in theory be measured if one could somehow determine how much better or worse off the world becomes as a result of one's actions However, this may be too simple minded an approach, because it does not take intent into account. Perhaps one would need to weigh the result of one's actions over not just our universe, but over all possible universes. As you can probably tell, I'm pretty utilitarian in my view of morality.
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 12:36 AMRegarding convergence of scientific theories:
Your remarks still seem to be referring to the increasing explanatory power of successive theories, rather than to the kind of similarity between those theories that would indicate convergence. For example, when you say that "Galileo's law of falling bodies was a consequence of [Newton's] more general theory of universal gravitation," I think you really mean that the phenomena explained by Galileo's law are also explained by universal gravitation.
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 9:31 PMI guess what you're saying is that the theory of gravity shows convergence of predictive power rather than overall convergence, which is interesting. Scientific revolutions seem to involve paradigm shifts, and it seems some such shifts result in equivalent theories in terms of the predictions they make. A good example of this is quantum mechanics. While very different intuitively, Heisenberg's and Schrodinger's formulations of quantum theory make exactly the same predictions. There are also many interpretations of quantum mechanics, none of which change its predictions,. Nevertheless, scientists often debate which interprepretation best explains nature.
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 2:06 PMWhat position do ideas hold in existence? I can imagine things that don't correspond to specific physical objects. When you say "existence is singular" do you take it to also include ideas?
I guess you could say that since my brain is part of existence, anything that I might think up is really just some pattern of chemicals, electric charges, etc., inside my brain and therefore is also part of existence. But this doesn't strike me as a very useful way of looking at ideas.
Or you could define existence to include also anything "represented" by anything that exists. Or maybe you have some other definition? -
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Re: Is Science Converging On The Truth?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 4:01 PMBy Existence I mean Everything that Is, which would include ideas.
I agree with you that it is not useful to reduce ideas to patterns of chemicals, electrical impulses, and so on. I prefer to view ideas as immanent expressions of the large within the small - as representations of a larger reality from a specific perspective. Nonetheless, ideas are expressed within a material substrate.
The reductionist view to which you refer is related to the belief that all aspects of being, including thought, are the deterministic result of physical phenomena operating according to fixed laws to produce inevitable outcomes. This clock-like behavior requires some externally-located god outside the Infinite (an impossibility) to "wind up" the clock at some point by starting everything off in a certain direction.
Since the Infinite includes Everything, it includes, in particular, all of time. There is no beginning or end to any of this. Being is the creative extension of differentiation (diversity) across an infinite expanse of dimensions such as space and time. Causality, which characterizes the deterministic viewpoint, is a post hoc mental interpretation that results from our linear experience of cooperative holistic relationships that sprawl across the axis of time and beyond it. In other words, because two things are connected along the temporal axis, determinists insist that the one that came first "caused" the other, but the truth is that they are simply related.
Since there can be no god outside the Infinite, the creativity from which all of this diversity arises must lie within Existence itself. That creativity of Existence is expressed differently at each point within Existence, and as we are a part of that Existence, we also express that creativity ourselves. The question of whether there is free will is therefore answered in the affirmative, with the qualification that this is not some arbitrary, personal free will, but rather it is the free will of Existence expressing itself uniquely as us at a particular place and time. One aspect of that expression is our ideas.
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