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Hi everyone! This is the topic of our monthly gathering this Sunday in Santa Monica (5-17-09; see the event listing nearby on this tribe page). I hope to see you there! Whether or not you come to Sunday's meeting, feel free to carry on a discussion by posting your own ideas here, either before or after Sunday's meeting.
Here's the full wording of this topic, which was the winner of the email vote this week:
IS IT OKAY FOR THE STATE TO RESTRICT (OR DISCOURAGE) PEOPLE FROM HAVING CHILDREN, OR HAVING ADDITIONAL CHILDREN, OR RESTRICT WHEN THEY CAN HAVE THEM? Are there any procreative or reproductive rights? If so, what are they, and what, if anything, limits them? Put another way, when is it morally permissible for a person to procreate? Can the interests of a person who wants to have children be restricted in the name of limiting harm to society, or limiting harm to that person's future children? Why or why not?
One controversial example is that of the "one-child" policy in China. Is it a violation of parental rights, or simply a prudent social policy in conditions of crowding or overpopulation? Another example: Is it okay to discourage or prohibit teenagers (under 18) from having children? Is it inconsistent to place limits on teenage reproduction but not on adult reproduction?
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See you Sunday!
Brian
Here's the full wording of this topic, which was the winner of the email vote this week:
IS IT OKAY FOR THE STATE TO RESTRICT (OR DISCOURAGE) PEOPLE FROM HAVING CHILDREN, OR HAVING ADDITIONAL CHILDREN, OR RESTRICT WHEN THEY CAN HAVE THEM? Are there any procreative or reproductive rights? If so, what are they, and what, if anything, limits them? Put another way, when is it morally permissible for a person to procreate? Can the interests of a person who wants to have children be restricted in the name of limiting harm to society, or limiting harm to that person's future children? Why or why not?
One controversial example is that of the "one-child" policy in China. Is it a violation of parental rights, or simply a prudent social policy in conditions of crowding or overpopulation? Another example: Is it okay to discourage or prohibit teenagers (under 18) from having children? Is it inconsistent to place limits on teenage reproduction but not on adult reproduction?
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See you Sunday!
Brian
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Re: CHILDBEARING: should the state ever restrict it?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 6:02 PMOPTIONAL READING-- I have one article for this month's topic. Inspire and clarify your thinking on the ideas by reading what philosophers and others have been arguing about: plato.stanford.edu/entries/parenthood/
This Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on parenthood and procreation gives an overview of a range of controversies around childrearing and reproduction. While the entire article is worth reading, the parts relevant to our topic are the very interesting sections 3. Whether there is a Right to Procreative Autonomy and 4. The Morality of Procreation. These sections total to about six pages.
FYI, here are the full vote-by-email results for the month:
1) Altruism: Is There Really Such A Thing? Should There Be? (25.75 Votes)
2) Trust: What Is It, When Is It Worth It, And How Valuable Is It? (28.25 Votes)
3) Do We Have Moral Obligations To Dead People? (6.5 Votes)
4) Should We Restrict/Discourage The Number Of Children one has? (29.75 Votes)
5) Torture/Interrogation: How Do You Define It, Should We Ever Do It… (8.5 Votes)
Each topic stays on the list until it wins or consistently receives a paltry number of votes. You may have noticed that the votes do not come in whole numbers. This is not because fractions of a person turn in votes, but because you receive one vote for your top choice, a half vote for your 2nd choice (if you had one), a quarter vote for your 3rd choice, and so on. Recent, regular participants at our gatherings have their vote doubled. -
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Re: CHILDBEARING: should the state ever restrict it?
Fri, May 15, 2009 - 6:15 PM
Philosophy in Los Angeles topic: reproduction
Beware the catch here, when females respond or males there is a distinct difference. Notice laws and cultural mores that punish and hold females responsible for their birthgiving or not-birthing, including contraception permission, abortion allowances, age of consent, etc.
But males are held to no or a very different standard and without much responsibility, except for financial aid.
So when a disabled child is born, the mother in Brian's moral standards example by encyclopedic standards [edited and written from which framework ? which gender, what experiences, which culture offers women equal opportunity to bear children or refuse them as they do men ? ] when the mother is giving birth with the POSSIBILITY of her knowing she may have a deformed / ill child, she is guilty and morally responsible...however, since no one checks the "other side" because yes, the father may not be so easily verified or identified...
then the moral question falls on only 1 of a pair who create a new birth.
So the question of reproduction is slanted and political and economic only later when there is less/ no sustenance available, but the main and basic focus on on the Woman who gave birth, or didnt or shouldnt or mustnt or whatever impositions are put on HER ...so how can this topic be discussed fairly ?
and who is noticing their own gender biases and experiences and stories they have heard but believed or not, when responding ?
this is a difficult bias and prejudice and slick question to give any reasonable fair honest conscious credance to answering.
watch out ! you too may fall into the trap of thinking you, of course, would never be limited in your thinking if you are male, or female, or however you consider your thoughts to align toward.
Beware errors of subsconscious influences entering into your thoughts and words.
What man has been accused of being irresponsible for creating a child, finding out his sperm, genes, descendants are not healthy enough to be human and to be born and then cared for by [usually] another woman ? how many do you know ? have a rare anectdotal case to tell? can anyone generalize from these special cases that are not the average or norm ? many do anyhow, conveniently. .....
Yet women who have been drug abusers and are not 'responsible' for the effects of their use when pregnant and then baby emerges with drugs in their body and women have been imprisoned, actually quite a few already. They should know not to take drugs for at least 9 months ? Even if their male mate is giving, allowing, providing such drugs.
How can this topic be discussed fairly and clearly ?
we'll hopefully find out....
just remember
who YOU are when you provide your answers to these questions Brian posed -
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Re: CHILDBEARING: should the state ever restrict it?
Fri, May 15, 2009 - 6:24 PMDo we know how the Chinese enforce the male sterility factor to ensure 1 child per couple ?
Or is it on the abortion required only on a woman ?
How is it done to include both genders fairly anywhere ? How can a male be prevented from sexual encounters without contraception, which is never 100% for sure anyhow.
The state restricts births, which occur in female bodies and on a "family" unit perhaps but how does it know who the father is to punish him for his not following the restrictions ? did they before use DNA testing, and at what costs can be done or what other proofs are required to enforce any restrictive laws ?
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Re: CHILDBEARING: should the state ever restrict it?
Sun, May 17, 2009 - 4:23 AMThe "need" to coerce people into socially beneficial activity tends to be inversely related to the opportunities that those same people have to realize their own positive creative potential.
One example of this is the fact that education and income levels are inversely related to the number of children per family. When people understand that an increased investment (in education, etc.) for each child will provide enhanced opportunities for their children, they tend to focus more effort on each child, and in order to do that, they tend to have fewer children. The likelihood of a child surviving to adulthood is, of course, an essential aspect of such enhanced opportunity, and so families for which such survival is in doubt will tend to have more children to increase the chances that some will survive.
When seen from this perspective, this question is similar to the question of whether we should invest more in education or in prisons. Should we provide people, and their children, with enhanced opportunities and a more friendly environment, or should we try to reduce their reproductive freedoms so that they do not bring too many children into a hostile and unforgiving world?
For China, in particular, the possibilities for women, especially outside of urban areas, are very limited, which is a major factor in people attempting to have more children, so that they can have the number of male offspring required to ensure that their children collectively reach some desired level of overall attainment. So, the solution would be to focus on increasing possibilities for female children, rather than to restrict overall births.
Generally speaking, being is cooperative diversity, which must be creatively constructed, not negatively legislated. Freedom is the result of such creativity; conversely, without creativity, coercion sets in, in the same way that rigor mortis sets in upon a dying person. In that case, every choice becomes a Hobson's choice. Given the way in which this question is often framed, there is a danger that this discussion could become a debate over such undesirable choices, but we should not allow that to occur.
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Re: CHILDBEARING: should the state ever restrict it?
Sun, May 17, 2009 - 3:02 PMIn making the above points, I did not mean to overlook the obvious one: that one aspect of giving people an expanded set of choices is to make birth control more widely available to those who would want to employ it. And, of course, one aspect of ensuring that women in particular have greater status and space within which to realize their unique potentials is to allow women to decide if and when they will reproduce. Practically speaking, both of these expansions of freedom will have a downward effect upon the birth rate.
So this is one more example of how expanding people's freedoms can attain the desired effect of a sustainable population level, as opposed to reducing people's freedoms in an attempt to coerce such a reduction. But, as argued above, reproductive freedom swings both ways, and so in order to be "pro-choice" one must not only favor making contraception and abortion available, but also must favor allowing people, and women in particular, to choose to have children if they want them. -
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Re: CHILDBEARING: should the state ever restrict it?
Sun, May 17, 2009 - 4:15 PMRegarding the Stanford Encyclopedia article:
"...conservatives believe there is no right to reproductive autonomy, because reproductive choices gain their meaning and value from their communal context."
Comment: This position assumes that individuals are subservient to (determined by) their communal contexts, rather than participating with their peers in a dynamic, dialectical process that *creates* such community. It seems to me that what such conservatives are really talking about when they refer to such a "communal context" is a dominator hierarchy the sits upon, and saps the life out of, a true community. The obvious example would be a patriarchal family institution dominated by its senior male members (so to speak), or a patriarchal religious "community" that is dominated by an elite group of males. In this case, what is really meant by female subservience to "the community" is obedience to a male dominator class. So this is dishonest language that allows control systems to masquerade as, and assume the moral authority of, the communities that they are attempting to control through coercion.
Regarding the libertarian view that all means of reproductive intervention made available by science should be allowed: Reproductive services that might be harmful to people ought to be regulated, but other than such safety-related issues, should be allowed to individuals for their own private purposes (e.g., for creating children that they intend to raise themselves). However, enterprises that go beyond such personal use, such as the mass production of human beings of a certain kind for a specific purpose, should be outlawed because of the negative effect such practices would have upon diversity and democracy, and because of the disproportionate power that such practices could place in the hands of those who controlled such technology. And so, I would agree with O'Neill's position, as cited in the article, that "no act of reproduction constitutes an exercise of a right to procreate unless it is performed with an intention to rear the resulting child so as to give it a life that is at least normal for its society." This is consistent with the fact that human reproduction is more than mere biological reproduction - is constitutes a long interval of socialization and education which is as much a part of producing a human being as is the birth process. Most people would agree that a permit should only be issued to build a house to someone who intends to carry through on the entire process, so that we do not have open foundation holes pockmarking the landscape indefinitely; similarly, people who have children should be required to be responsible for ensuring, either directly or indirectly (e.g., through adoption), that they are socialized and educated. We already have such laws, of course. As for poor parents having fewer reproductive rights due to their reduced ability to support a family, the inequality is caused by poverty, not reproductive policy.
Regarding the feminist argument that technological innovations enable additional ways of exploiting those who are already at an economic disadvantage (e.g., by turning poor women into surrogate mothers): I agree. Speaking very generally, the fundamental problem is the inequality, rather than the technology. But to the extent that technology turns the birth process into a commodity, it is alienating an integral aspect of families and communities, placing a price upon it, and then selling it back to people. That does give power to the corporate and scientific hierarchy that controls such commodification, thereby reducing diversity and increasing control. This is true of many kinds of commodification, not just that pertaining to reproduction, but when people's own biological processes are commodified the effect is particularly disruptive to the social fabric (e.g., women birthing children for other people instead of raising their own). I do think that the fundamental solution, just as with prostitution, is to give individuals, and particularly women, increased economic and political power so that they are not coerced into such arrangements. But to the extent that such corporate institutions (or, in the case of prostitution, brothels, pimps and so on) constitute a mechanism for the oppression of women as a group, they may need to be actively dismantled through legislation and law enforcement as part of restoring the personal autonomy of those women who are being exploited by them. The important point is to aim such actions at the dominator hierarchies rather than at those who have been entrapped by them.
Regarding the section on morality, my overall comment would be that we need to distinguish between individual morality and public policy. People might be faced with individual decisions such as whether or not to have a child when there is a likelihood of a genetic defect, and we can comment on what such a person might choose to do in such a circumstance, but that does not mean that the best approach to dealing with such decisions is to coerce people into making the decision that we think is most moral for them, because coercion itself has negative consequences for diversity and democracy, and we also have to admit that we might be wrong in what we collectively prescribe for someone who is faced with such a decision. There are other, more positive, ways to have a socially beneficial impact upon such choices, such as making adoption a more available and desirable alternative.
In each case, we should ask ourselves why someone is making a socially undesirable choice, and then attempt to configure public policy so that additional, better choices are readily available to that person.
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