The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

topic posted Thu, March 12, 2009 - 12:21 PM by  ScreamBrian
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Hi everyone! This is the topic of our monthly gathering this Sunday in Santa Monica (3-15-09; see the event listing nearby on this tribe page). I hope to see you there! Whether or not you come to Sunday's meeting, feel free to carry on a discussion by posting your own ideas here, either before or after Sunday's meeting.

Here's the full wording of this topic, which was the winner of a close email vote this week:


IS IT REASONABLE TO BELIEVE IN AN AFTERLIFE OR THE SOUL? What are the arguments for and against? How Does Our Knowledge Of Neuroscience Bear On The Question?


See you Sunday!

Brian
posted by:
ScreamBrian
Los Angeles
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  • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

    Thu, March 12, 2009 - 1:07 PM
    OPTIONAL READINGS ON THE TOPIC OF "IS IT REASONABLE TO BELIEVE IN AN AFTERLIFE OR THE SOUL?": I have only one optional reading for you this month, plato.stanford.edu/entries/afterlife/

    Read what philosophers have been thinking and debating about in this Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on the afterlife and the possibility of surviving death, one of their shorter entries (8 pages on my printout). Inspire and clarify your thinking on the ideas by reading or at least skimming it!

    I may also post some short excerpts of another reading, tomorrow, if I find something good.
    ----------------

    FYI, here are the full vote-by-email results for the month:

    1) Is It Reasonable To Believe In An Afterlife? (29.75 Votes)
    2) What Moral Obligations Do We Have To Obey The Laws…? (21.0 Votes)
    3) The Boundaries Between Things: What Is A "Boundary"…? (29.25 Votes)
    2) Should We Restrict Or Discourage The Number Of Children People Have? (23.75 Votes)
    5) Torture and Interrogation: How Do You Define Torture…? (6.75 Votes)

    Each topic stays on the list until it wins or consistently receives a paltry number of votes. You may have noticed that the votes do not come in whole numbers. This is not because fractions of a person turn in votes, but because you receive one vote for your top choice, a half vote for your 2nd choice (if you had one), a quarter vote for your 3rd choice, and so on. Regular participants at our gatherings have their vote doubled.
    • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

      Thu, March 12, 2009 - 9:14 PM
      Time is one axis of an infinite continuum. It is no more reasonable to fixate upon our finiteness along the axis of time than it is to fixate upon our finiteness within the three dimensions. Just because a particular person does not exist on Jupiter does not mean that that person does not personally exist, in a meaningful manner, here on Earth. And similarly, just because a particular person will not exist at some point in the future does not change the fact that they exist, meaningfully, in the present moment. Finally (and conversely), just because a person who used to exist does not exist in the present moment does not change the fact that they did exist, meaningfully, in the past.

      Those who imagine an afterlife are typically imagining an existence that is still finite, but somehow extended along the axis of time past the horizon of death. Indeed, if this imagined existence were not finite, then it would be the same as the All, as universal Existence, and in that case this imagined expansion of individual existence to the level of the Infinite would lose all personal meaning and become a simple merging with the All. In which case, we would only be saying that the All encompasses all time, while finite beings such as ourselves are limited in time, just as we are limited spatially; this, of course, is trivially obvious, and thus is devoid of philosophical interest.

      From a philosophical standpoint, this renders the question of whether there is an afterlife somewhat moot. So long as we are finite beings, it is of little fundamental interest whether there is some part of our existence that extends beyond the domain that is evident to our senses. Perhaps we have a soul that staggers on after we lose our physical form, or perhaps we have an "aura," an energy field of some kind, that extends beyond our apparent physical boundaries. The presence of such an aura would not change anything from a philosophical standpoint, any more than if we ate excessively and extended our physical boundaries in that manner. And the presence of an invisible continuation of our personal self beyond our evident time frame would also not change anything at all from a philosophical perspective. In both cases, we would still be finite beings; our extent would merely be larger or longer.

      It is, however, of some interest to ask why people have this fascination with transcending our temporal limitations. To some extent, I believe that this is wishful thinking, because we constantly strive, as we must, against annihilation, even though that struggle is ultimately doomed to failure. However, there is also immanence - the representation of the large, including the Infinite, within the small, including ourselves. This immanent representation of the Infinite within each of us may be the reason that we believe there is some part of us that can transcend our temporal limits. However, the notion that we simply persist linearly in time beyond our physical demise is a trivialization of this immanence - a reduction of the "good Infinite" resulting from our reflection of the universal quality of cooperative diversity to a "bad infinite" of endless simple extension.
    • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

      Fri, March 13, 2009 - 5:46 PM
      ANOTHER ARTICLE TO PERUSE: a regular at the philosophy group, Rimas, sent me an interesting reading on the issue. If you want a good "argument from neuroscience" against the existence of the soul, read sections 1 and 2 of this article, www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html

      It's a long article; sections 1 and 2 alone are about 20 pages, but it is fast reading and you can definitely get the main ideas by skimming it or reading only part of it. It's worth looking at.
      • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

        Sat, March 14, 2009 - 9:34 PM
        This article reminded me that my prior reponse had dealt with the afterlife, but not with the concept of the soul.

        Regarding the attempt by this article to refute the existence of the soul on the grounds that the material components of the brain can be shown to be associated with all known mental effects, I would note that a materialistic view of the brain does not rule out that the brain, in its material form, immanently represents universal qualities that exist beyond (and therefore transcend) its physical form, much as each little piece of a hologram contains a particular view of the scene that is represented, from all perspectives, in the hologram as a whole. If what is meant by "the soul" is this reflection of a transcendent universality, then there is no contradiction between such a notion of the soul, on the one hand, and materialism, on the other.
        • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

          Sun, March 15, 2009 - 11:38 AM
          ANOTHER ARTICLE/ INTERVIEW TO LOOK AT, RE: THE SOUL AND EVIDENCE (ALLEGED) FOR REINCARNATION: From a much different point of view than the other readings, psychiatrist and researcher Ian Stevenson compiled many case studies which, he argues, supplies strong evidence for reincarnation, and thus for a soul that survives the death of the body. Here's the link to an interview with him, courtesy of another of the regulars to our group, Peter:

          reluctant-messenger.com/reinca...terview
          • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

            Sun, March 15, 2009 - 11:10 PM
            Again, if I were dying of cancer, I might be interested in whether or not I would be reincarnated, but I would also be interested in whether some new cancer therapy might further prolong my life. From a philosophical standpoint, the two seem to be of similar, rather low, levels of interest. Prolonging individualized awareness and physical integrity is something toward which we should strive, because all being is based upon our noble, yet ultimately doomed, attempts to preserve our finite, imperfect forms. However, the accidental externalities that affect our success or failure in prolonging our individual existence at a specific point in time, such as the reality (or unreality) of reincarnation (or, the validity of a particular cancer cure) are of little philosophical import, as compared to our moral intent to make our best effort in ensuring our personal integrity (physical, moral, etc.). I therefore find the question of reincarnation to be a distraction from more fundamental philosophical issues bearing upon our relationship, as finite beings, to Infinite being.
  • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

    Thu, March 26, 2009 - 10:14 AM
    Sorry I missed what sounds like an interesting topic. The question for me bears down on whether various religious views on the soul and afterlife makes sense. Though having an afterlife and soul don't logically require any particular religious view to be true or plausible, if certain religious views (like Islam or Christianity) are plausible or true, then so is the afterlife, since both religions posit an afterlife.

    I haven't read your links yet, but I've heard it argued that a conscious afterlife is implausible because neuroscience tells us that the mind requires the brain. I think "requires" is overly strong if used in a logical necessity sense. If there's n omnipotent God, then unless an afterlife is self-contradictory (doesn't seem to be), it doesn't seem impossible for such a god to create a medium where consciousness is maintained absent a physical brain. It may thus be a technological issue. The argument would be like arguing before the invention of audio recording devices that recording the sound of something outside of a brain is impossible since the only media we have (at that time) for recording sounds was the brain via the ears.

    We have, after all, various media for recording digital information. What's so implausible about a sufficient technology being able to "download" the information in a mind to another medium?

    So if it's plausible that some being with sufficient technological prowess exists to "download" minds onto other media, then an afterlife is plausible.
    • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

      Sat, August 29, 2009 - 2:00 PM
      [Typographical note: This website does not accommodate italicization, for which I will substitute CAPITALIZATION.]

      Following is my view on life after death. Preliminarily, we must define the entity that is supposed to survive (the issue addressed by the concept of the soul). As I see it, that entity, the individual’s quintessence, is consciousness, bare sentience, sans mental equipment, like memory and thought (which may decline or end in a creature, though he remains the same individual).

      I believe that afterlife is logically possible (we came once, we could theoretically come again), but unlikely. Heaven and Hell is pure fantasy. Less easy to dismiss is reincarnation, an individual’s continuing, perhaps endlessly, by successive rebirth in other organisms, most often envisioned occurring between humans. While it cannot be disproved (or proved—if it happened, no one, not even the subject, would know it); I disbelieve in reincarnation as well, for this reason.

      The number of potential awarenesses that have never come into actual being is infinitely times as great as the number which have previously lived, even if the latter number is itself infinite (it is the contrast between the actual and the possible, the possible being infinitely more vast than the actual, even if the actual is infinite). Thus, when an organism is about to be born, it is infinitely more likely that the consciousness that will come to life in it will be drawn from among those which have not theretofore been realized than from among those which have already existed (because the first category is infinitely greater than the second). And so the likelihood that ANYONE will EVER have another life, is infinitesimal—theoretically possible, practically impossible.

      On the bright side, rejoice!; for if you ever DID reappear, it is overwhelmingly (though finitely) probable that you would come back, not as a man (let alone a great one), or even as a lion, but rather as a mouse or a flea, because they far outnumber higher animals . . . assuming the distribution of life forms on Earth typifies that throughout the cosmos. More to the point, life, even human life, is, on balance, wretched. Ironically, there may be justice, and mercy, not in the existence of some resurrection everlasting, but in EVERYONE’S life, its joy and its misery, being finite.

      – Richard J. Eisner (8/29/2009; 1-818-343-0123; richard@richardeisner.com)
      • Re: The Afterlife Or The Soul-- Is It Plausible?

        Sun, August 30, 2009 - 12:19 AM
        "Heaven and Hell is pure fantasy."

        I see no reason to assume that. I see no logical problem with our minds being "downloaded" into another medium, like information on a hard drive can be exported onto another computer, or a CD-ROM, etc. Similarly, could there be an omnipotent (or at least sufficiently powerful or technologically advanced) entity who can create some universe or domain where minds can be downloaded into different forms that live in that domain?

        I see no problem with that, unless it simply conflicts with one's world view, which doesn't constitute a demonstration of its lack of plausibility.

        I actually find reincarnation less plausible. It's clearly not the body that gets reproduced through reincarnation. What does that leave? If it's the mind, in what way is the mind reincarnated if it doesn't retain the same memories? How can it be said to be the same mind with different memories? As for psychological characteristics beyond memories, if you add personality qualities from genetics and from one's life environment, then that doesn't leave much left to have been reincarnated.