Hi people-- this is one of the topics up for a vote for this Sunday's philosophy discussion in Santa Monica. A few people emailed me opinions on it, so I thought I'd start this thread. Tell me what you think about the matter!

Here is the way the topic was worded:

1) WHAT IS A RATIONAL DISCUSSION? What is required for having a rational discussion, and how is it different from other ways of dealing with disagreements and conflicts?

By the way, if you have a favorite topic from the list, you can vote by sending me message today (see the Event listing on this tribe page called "Philosophy-in-LA Café, January 21, 2:00 PM").

Lastly, if you have any philosophical issue or question that's been "weighing heavily on your soul," or that you’ve been dying to talk to somebody about, then definitely write it up and send me a message or email, or start a thread on it! The topics that we vote on and talk about at our monthly gatherings come from such questions and puzzles that have fascinated or annoyed some member of our discussion group and/or this tribe.
posted by:
ScreamBrian
Los Angeles

  • I would start out by suggesting that rational discussions might involve reasons, and in particular making claims or arguments or what have you based on reasons that the group considers worthy of discussion. "I just know" may sound wrong, except that it could make a perfectly good argument from authority - an expert who "just knows" how something is done may well be giving the best reason available for believing something. "It says it here in the Bible" might be just the right or wrong sort of reason, depending on the group and topic. I think the point is accepting or at least aiming at some sort of common ground for the discussion. When the participants disagree about whether to accept as a basis for discussion religious texts, parental authority, a particular individual's "expert" opinion, the validity of a particular scientific experiment etc. then I think they are failing to have a rational discussion about the originial topic. Although they may well me moving into a rational discussion about what standards to apply - "that study wasn't even peer-reviewed" or "no, I can pay for it myself if I want to" are examples of moving into a possibly rational meta-discussion.

    Of course, what people often *want* is some meta-meta-conclusion, some universal basis for deciding what counts as an appropriate reason for making claims in any discussion. I think this is a misguided search, personally, but more power to anyone who can come up with a plausible answer.

    Mitch
  • This post was deleted by ScreamBrian
  • 1) Rational discussion is discussion in which participants attempt to name as many relevant differences as possible and to establish the connections between differences in a way that a shared assessment of the truth of some may be put in support of or against the questioned truth of others.

    (By `truth' I mean only firmness, persistency, reliability in action, and that sort of thing. I don't suppose rational discussion requires that there by uncontestable or absolute truths, but I do suppose that it requires that we can jointly recognise that some statements are more true than others, more firm, more reliable as guides to action within whatever limit the conversation is being carried out in.)

    2) Rational discussion requires two things: first, a commitment to truth, understood in this minimal sense as what is firm; second, a commitment to truthfulness, understood as a willingness to make clear the differences with which one is working so as to arrive at a shared recognition of the truth of some statements and the relations between those statements and the statements in question.

    3) This question is quite involved, but I suppose its obvious enough.
    • Hi People! It looks like this topic is the winner of the vote this month, so this is what we're talking about at this Sunday's gathering in Santa Monica! (See the related Event posting on this tribe's webpage). Here's how the topic was worded in the email I sent to everyone:

      WHAT IS A RATIONAL DISCUSSION? What is required for having a rational discussion, and how is it different from other ways of dealing with disagreements and conflicts?

      ------------------------------------------------

      If anybody's interested in OPTIONAL READINGS on the topic, I've gathered a few short, articles.

      Neither of my usual, favorite sources of philosophy articles, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy nor The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, had anything directly on our topic. But I found several quick readings on Wikipedia, and one “glossary of terms” webpage that might be useful for decoding the strange words and phrases these philosophers sometimes use. All of the readings I found relate to the theories of Jurgen Habermas, the philosopher most obsessed with the issue of Rational Discussion and its role in resolving social conflict and disagreement. I’ll list them here, in the order of how relevant to our topic they seemed:

      1- “Universal pragmatics,” a Wikipedia article on this theory by Habermas, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univ...pragmatics
      2- “Communicative rationality,” a shorter Wikipedia article about the theory of this name, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comm...ationality
      3- A definition of terms and concepts, produced by a Philosophy class on Habermas and his theories of Rhetoric and Rational discourse com.bradley.edu/faculty/la...bermas.html
      4- “Jürgen Habermas,” another very short Wikipedia article. See mainly section two, “Theory,” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurgen_Habermas

      As always, feel free to read or skim any of these articles/ book reviews… or anything else you find, or nothing at all. However, the above readings may improve or inspire your thinking on this philosophical issue. Most importantly, jot your ideas in this thread, and/or come to our discussion Sunday with your ideas, musings, questions, and paper on which to jot down your thoughts!
      • Okay, I have a few thoughts on this question of the month. The topic can be approached from many angles. I am focusing on the issue of “rational discussion” as a method for resolving disputes, disagreements and conflicts in political as well as interpersonal situations. This angle is in contrast to the issue of rational discussion in other contexts, e.g., as a way of discovering things, brainstorming, forming social bonds. Those are perfectly good topics, of course, and maybe someone else has ideas they’d like to share on it.

        As I look over what I’ve written below, it doesn’t seem like anything new, unusual or surprising. I think I’ve merely put into words a few obvious things that many or most people already know implicitly, though most people, I’d guess, haven’t bothered to articulate it to themselves, or to commit to acting in accord with these ideas, which many or most people would say they agree with, if asked.

        1) When any dispute about what to do or how to view things arises, how is it decided? As I see it, there are only a few ways for the dispute to be handled. Either by action or inaction, purposefully or accidentally, a decision is made on what to do about some issue, what policy to enact, what view or proclamation to be settled on or publicly assented to. I’m thinking here mainly of political and public contexts, but I think this also applies to personal disagreements between two or more individuals.

        When such a dispute arises, the final result will be that one of the views put forth by one of the interested parties will be settled upon as the right or best answer. Or, the view settled upon will be a hybrid of two or more of the views put forth by people. Either way, the question is this: in the process of deciding upon a view, how can the interested parties reach their decision? Here is the list I’ve come up with so far:

        1. VIOLENCE- i.e., when someone uses violence to silence others or to compel others to adopt their views or policies.

        2. THREAT- same as above, but instead of actual violence, it’s the threat of violence, harm, or of placing an inconvenience or burden on someone, in order to compel assent or shut them up.

        3. IGNORING- - when someone ignores the disagreement or someone’s view on it, hoping that other person’s view won’t affect the final decision settled upon.

        4. “RUSH TO JUDGMENT”- i.e., a decision is prematurely reached, for example, by forcing a vote or consensus or final decision before everyone has heard each other’s views, or before a sufficient amount of discussion or conversation has taken place. In other words, a decision is settled upon before everyone has done the hard work of knowing that the decision is actually the best one that can be reached.

        5. MANIPULATION AND DECEIT: when someone deceives others or manipulates them as a way of getting their point of view accepted. This would include lying, bending the truth, presenting only some of the facts and opinions, name-calling, using social-pressure, making “straw man” arguments against others views, trying to make those who disagree with you look flawed or wrong or of poor character, and other such techniques we’ve all become familiar with.

        6. RATIONAL DISCUSSION- having a full, open and fair discussion of the issue and the facts and opinions around it, using rational standards as the criteria by which to judge which views are the best in the situation at hand. This is the favored method, of course. Any given discussion isn’t completely rational or completely irrational; it is a matter of degree. Rationality is built into the structure of any language, so you cannot completely get away from it, even when you claim to do so. The best approach, the one that, in general, tends to lead to the best decisions, is one that not only promotes the resolution of the current dispute by rational means, but also promotes the ability of everyone to do so the next time a differing of views or dispute arises


        The above list (including subtypes and combinations of those methods of dispute resolution), covers the limited number of ways of dealing with conflict, unless I’ve left something out. These different ways are not mutually exclusive. Any given disagreement can (and usually does) have elements of one or more of the above methods of handling a dispute, in varying proportions.


        2) It will come as no surprise to you that I believe the first five methods of handling a dispute to be poor methods, and that it’s preferable in most or all situations to resolve disagreements by the last method, rational discussion. I think we should do our best to resort to the other methods as infrequently as possible and only as a last resort. One such exception might be, for example, that some decisions must be made so quickly that a full and open debate is impossible or counterproductive, but this is the exception, not the rule. I’m sure other exceptions exist.

        One of the best reasons for all of us to commit to using rational discussion to handle disagreements is that all of the alternative, “poor” methods are, typically, immoral, since they involve harming others—blatantly or subtly—in avoidable ways. A second reason is that the “poor” methods all involve a process of decision-making that tends to produce lousy decisions and views (as compared to decisions arrived at by rational discussion), which in turn ends up harming people, wasting effort and resources, and/or limiting the benefit to ourselves and society we could be otherwise be enjoying.

        A third reason is that, when we fail to resolve disagreements by rational discussion, people often get pissed off and feel that they’ve been the victim of an injustice. This increases the likelihood that future disputes will not be resolved by rational discussion, but instead by violence, threat, deceit, and so on. This is generally bad for everyone, even the “victors” (those whose views were settled upon). This tends to push personal relationships and society as a whole in the direction of a breakdown in the rule of law and, in the famous words of Thomas Hobbes, “a war of all against all,” making life more “nasty, brutish and short” for many people.
        • CONTINUING THE ABOVE THOUGHTS FROM THE PREVIOUS POSTING...

          3) In any case, whether or not the above list (from the previous posting) is correct, complete or useful, we have a related but independent question to consider. This is,

          “What are the requirements for rational discussion? What conditions make it possible in its most complete form?” Here’s what I’ve come up with so far, a list of the “rules” of discussion each participant should follow:

          1. Be Fair- this would include that each person refrains from using one of the above “poor” methods of coming to a decision, i.e., violence, threat, ignoring, rushing to judgment, manipulation and deceit.

          2. Be willing and able to really listen to another’s view, take the time to fully hear out an idea.

          3. Strive to truly understand each view before coming to a final judgment on it.

          4. Give each view a fair hearing. To this end, strive to attain some sympathy for others’ views, even those that seem repugnant. You don’t have to agree with them, just empathize and try to give a basic degree of respect and consideration to their views, values, and arguments.

          5. Commit to discovering the best view, no matter what it is. This requires that we commit to understanding and accepting the facts that bear on the issue as accurately as possible.

          6. Be willing and able to evaluate ideas and arguments rationally, which entails knowing what a logical argument is and what fallacies arguments can fall prey to, sticking to the point, supporting your views with good reasons, settling on the views that are the best supported by argument, evaluating each view and situation on its own merits (i.e., not ideologically), etc.

          a. To do this, it’s not enough to merely be educated or smart—everyone knows very intelligent people who are incapable of arguing fairly or reasonably. Rather, it’s more important that people make a commitment to being a reasonable person when discussions arise, and that they get a lot of practice evaluating views rationally.

          b. I’d like to quote Scott, who made a good point in his posting in this thread on 1-27-07: “I don't suppose rational discussion requires that there be uncontestable or absolute truths, but I do suppose that it requires that we can jointly recognise that some statements are more true than others, more firm, more reliable as guides to action within whatever limit the conversation is being carried out in.”

          7. Judge other’s views only by how good their reasons and arguments are, and not by other characteristics of the person, e.g., how annoyed you are by them, how bad their ideas have been in the past, how bad or good you think their motives are, who their friends or family are...

          8. Be willing to be wrong about your own views and arguments, and be open to actually changing your views. Don’t argue in order to be right, or the best arguer, but to arrive at the best view.

          9. Be able and willing to truly be friends with someone, even when you radically disagree, and even when you cannot come to resolution or agreement. Failing to do this makes it less likely you will be able to give their arguments a fair hearing, more likely you’ll ignore their views and arguments, and it prevents the likelihood of future disputes being able to be resolved by rational discussion. This means that it will be resolved by one of the other, poorer methods.


          Now, most of this seems obvious to me. Does anyone else have anything to add or alter on these two lists I’ve made? Have I left anything out? Or, does anyone think my entire approach is misguided? Let me know!

          Brian
          • After I wrote the above, I found this info in a Wikipedia article on “deliberative democracy.” It seems to have somewhat similar things in mind to what I was thinking, though it’s stated in terms of how the author thinks a democratic state should be set up. These ideas are from the great John Rawls, and one of his students.

            ----------------------------------------------------

            “Joshua Cohen, a student of Rawls, most clearly outlined some conditions that he thinks constitutes the root principles of the theory of deliberative democracy in the article "Deliberation and Democratic Legitimacy" in the book “The Good Polity.”


            He outlines 5 main features of deliberative democracy, which include:

            1. An ongoing independent association with expected continuation
            2. The citizens in the democracy structure their institutions such that deliberation is the deciding factor in their creation and that they allow deliberation to continue.
            3. A commitment to the respect of a pluralism of values and aims within the polity.
            4. The participants in the democracy regard deliberative procedure as the source of legitimacy and as such they also prefer that causal histories of legitimation for each law be transparent, and easily traceable back to the deliberative process.
            5. Each member and all members recognize and respect each others' having deliberative capacity

            This can be construed as the fact that in a deliberative democracy, we "owe" one another, in the legislative process, reasons.

            Cohen also goes further than deliberative democracy... [He created] a theory of legitimacy and forms a body of substantive rights around it based on achieving "ideal deliberation":

            ----------------------------------------------------

            It [deliberative democracy] is free in two ways:

            1. The participants regard themselves as bound solely by the results and preconditions of the deliberation. They are free from any authority of prior norms or requirements.
            2. The participants suppose that they can act on the decision made, the decision through deliberation is a sufficient reason for compliance with it.

            It is reasoned: parties to deliberation are required to state reasons for proposals, and proposals are accepted or rejected based on the reasons given, as the content of the very deliberation taking place.

            ----------------------------------------------------

            Participants are equal in two ways:

            1. Formal — anyone can put forth proposals, criticize, and support measures. There is no substantive hierarchy.
            2. Substantive — the participants are not limited or bound by certain distributions of power, resources, or pre-existing norms. "The participants…do not regard themselves as bound by the existing system of rights, except insofar as that system establishes the framework of free deliberation among equals."

            Deliberation aims at a rationally motivated consensus: it aims to find reasons acceptable to all who are committed to such a system of decision-making. When consensus or something near enough is not possible, majoritarian decision making is utilized.”

Recent topics in "! Philosophy in Los Angeles !"